Curse

[Morkai] · Jan 05, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Considering I see DoA empty (spent like 2 weeks in there last december with my girl getting gems for a few torment weapons) and the Deep and Urgoz are hardly better, and the few people that are there call me crazy and leave when they see we are using 6 heroes, I would say they aren't rendering those elite areas into just areas.

But maybe my girl, myself and my heroes bother u...

DoA is dead because of lack of skill. By taking away Ursan, DoA died. You see the pattern here? Or have you not been reading the past 6 pages worth of thread.

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Congratulations , u cut and copied a post and completly misunderstood the sense , u r impressively WRONG . Good FAIL dude . When i said "every prof can use it" i meant that every prof that chances sec prof to that and uses skills of that second prof can use it and have SOME effect. For example , critical bow sin can use triple shot (allegiance skill) and have good effect.

Talking l33t with 'u' instead of 'you' and 'r' instead of 'or' doesn't make you look intelligent, neither does insulting people.

Not every character can use every skill. I mean, they can, but it's useless. And critical sin with triple shot... Why would you waste a sin by giving him a bow instead of a WS Scythe or DB/MS? That is, if we are still talking about effectiveness.

Go ahead, use Selfless Spirit on a W/Mo or Aura of Holy Might on a Necromancer. Or Save Yourselves on a Mesmer. Or Shadow Sanctuary on a Warrior. Or Elemental Lord anywhere except for E/x or Me/E, because anything else is a waste of profession? I mean, Me/E is a waste, too, but it's a good kind of waste. Fast Casting helps Ele nukes, but N/E wouldn't work as good with SR to power energy pool.

Quote:

So are you

Why thank you. You tried to insult me, but I don't think of myself so high. I am right, but everything else isn't wrong.

A11Eur0 · Jan 05, 2009, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

You don't find it a little funny that you're saying inexperienced players should be able to easily roll through hard mode elite missions?

Really?

Inexperienced players can't "roll through" elite areas. Join a bunch of cryway urgoz HM pugs and tell me how fast they are and if they even make it. Pugs are a 50/50 failure rate and the ones that don't fail take forever to complete with DP across the board.

Just because sMs rapes these areas with these builds doesn't mean every jack and jill you find with the skill bar can do the same. Every build that WORKS in these elite areas can "roll" these elite areas in an experienced team. You see the fastest times completed screenshot thread and think that's the norm. No, it's not. It's the exception. Take away speed clear from UW and your average completion time is 2 hours. Take away imbagons and the average completion is up to 3 hours. Only the hardcore ELITISTS will stick around for that long just for a slim chance at a decent payoff.

If you take away the builds that actually get inexperienced players into the elite area,s they'll stop playing those areas altogether because they're not aware of the alternate builds.

Arkantos · Jan 05, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

You need to learn to read, because in my previous post I said that I didn't believe you were an elitist, but seeing how you took it personal, now I can't help but think that deep inside you know you're one.
You didn't call them Overpowered, ( please point out where I said you called them overpowered) but by your logic they are.
On the other hand, cry of pain on a single char isn't that powerful, when in party it becomes an issue, same with aura of holy might (alone it's not overpowered) but when you have 4 wars spamming scythe attacks with it, it becomes an issue, again you forgot or didn't want to mention the whole thing. Again balance in pve means nothing, mobs will never complain about that and as long as things aren't handed freely I see no point in nerfing things, I'd be worried a little if you could get a voltaic in 2 minutes but not when you still need countless runs each lasting 15 minutes at least to get one.

QQ is sometimes used on the Internet as an abbreviation for crying; it is supposedly visually similar to two big eyes with tears at the bottom. For further reading, see emoticon (Urban dictionary).

This thread has all the qualities of the standard complain/whine thread, fits the QQ requirements perfectly. By the way I'd like to point out next update is tomorrow, by then we will see if ROJ is really bugged or just another OP skill, I hope you will add that on the list with all the ones I previously mentioned (add to that "By Ural's hammer" as well, oh and sliver armor, anyone complaining about SF when sliver is the skill that should be killed in order to destroy SF farming)

Sorry for not reading your previous post, then. And no, I'm not an elitist.

You said by my logic, those skills are overpowered. You didn't directly say I said it, so forgive me.

4 scythe warriors in PvE isn't going to cause nearly as much damage as cryway does. Cry of pain is overpowered, aura of holy might is not. No, the mobs won't cry, but for various reasons said in various threads for the past year, balance is an issue in PvE, whether you realize it or not.

Thank you for telling me the definition. Now, by that definition, point out where I am crying, please. You clearly still do not understand what it means. This is not a QQ thread. If it was, my post would have been a lot less detailed, and it most likely wouldn't have been constructive. I would have probably just said 'OMG THESE SKILLZ R RLY OVERPOWERED

NERF DEM NOW!'. But no, I gave a detailed, constructive explanation on everything I said. That's more than most of the posts in this thread, including yours.

Quote:

Inexperienced players can't "roll through" elite areas. Join a bunch of cryway urgoz HM pugs and tell me how fast they are and if they even make it. Pugs are a 50/50 failure rate and the ones that don't fail take forever to complete with DP across the board.

Just because sMs rapes these areas with these builds doesn't mean every jack and jill you find with the skill bar can do the same. Every build that WORKS in these elite areas can "roll" these elite areas in an experienced team. You see the fastest times completed screenshot thread and think that's the norm. No, it's not. It's the exception. Take away speed clear from UW and your average completion time is 2 hours. Take away imbagons and the average completion is up to 3 hours. Only the hardcore ELITISTS will stick around for that long just for a slim chance at a decent payoff.

If you take away the builds that actually get inexperienced players into the elite area,s they'll stop playing those areas altogether because they're not aware of the alternate builds.

There's a difference between inexperienced and bad. People in pugs are usually both. Inexperienced players who are decent and somewhat intelligent will be able to play gimmick builds with ease. Bad players are just dumb and generally fail at most things.

You're right, an experienced team will be able to roll through just about anything. Do you know why? Because they're experienced. Generally when you're experienced at something, you excel at it. Your average times are for players who aren't that great at the game. Decent (not good, not "elitist") players will be able to do those areas quicker. I don't know what point you're trying to prove by saying bad players are slow at beating areas.

They aren't aware of alternate builds because of these gimmick builds. New players are forced to run gimmick builds. The playerbase is getting less and less skilled because the old players who were good at balanced are leaving, and new players are only running gimmicks. New players will never know how to run a build that actually takes skill.

Tenebrae · Jan 05, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Great Arkantos , now we see your face
"If having common sense means you're an elitist, sure."
Rest of us who disagree with you dont have common sense , ok.
"You also need to learn what QQ is, and what an elitist is. I'm not elitist, I just happen to be in the minority of players that give a shit about balance in PvE."
Translation : People who doesnt think like you doesnt give a shit about balance in PvE .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Talking l33t with 'u' instead of 'you' and 'r' instead of 'or' doesn't make you look intelligent, neither does insulting people.

Misunderstand posts and cut parts of it to complete lose the sense of the sentence doesnt make u smart either , and i didnt insult you dude , chill . I just said that you failed trying to prove me wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Not every character can use every skill. I mean, they can, but it's useless. And critical sin with triple shot... Why would you waste a sin by giving him a bow instead of a WS Scythe or DB/MS? That is, if we are still talking about effectiveness.

Go ahead, use Selfless Spirit on a W/Mo or Aura of Holy Might on a Necromancer. Or Save Yourselves on a Mesmer. Or Shadow Sanctuary on a Warrior. Or Elemental Lord anywhere except for E/x or Me/E, because anything else is a waste of profession? I mean, Me/E is a waste, too, but it's a good kind of waste. Fast Casting helps Ele nukes, but N/E wouldn't work as good with SR to power energy pool.

I cant really understand how you STILL misunderstand my post , unbelievable. SEE THE " " " BALANCE " " " that Arkantos want on #1 thats what i am talking about , is not a balance is a NERF so that other classes wont EVER HAVE THE CHANCE ( i dont care if u think that a Sin with a bow is stupid and so on ) to USE IT. The other Allegiance skills still can be used with some effect , im not saying a W/D with AoHmight is PRO or is not , but at least HE CAN USE IT WITH SOME EFFECTS , GOT IT ?.

God i really hope that caps help yoo to understand my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Why thank you. You tried to insult me, but I don't think of myself so high. I am right, but everything else isn't wrong.

Is not about right or wrong , is about understand a point and not cut parts of a post to completely CHANGE what it says.

Arkantos · Jan 05, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Great Arkantos , now we see your face
"If having common sense means you're an elitist, sure."
Rest of us who disagree with you dont have common sense , ok.
"You also need to learn what QQ is, and what an elitist is. I'm not elitist, I just happen to be in the minority of players that give a shit about balance in PvE."
Translation : People who doesnt think like you doesnt give a shit about balance in PvE

Read the post I quoted, and then read the post that person quoted. You'll be sure to find out I never implied that people who are disagreeing with me don't have common sense. I'm sure most people disagreeing indeed do have common sense.

And again, no. You don't have to think like me to give a shit about PvE balance. However, people who don't think these skills should be changed don't care about PvE balance. You stop caring about balance once you think very overpowered skills shouldn't get toned down.

A11Eur0 · Jan 05, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Yes, they're FORCED TO USE gimmick builds because otherwise they'll fail. It's not because they won't be accepted, it's because they FAIL.

You keep saying the same thing I'm saying but making it an argument for your case. There are bad players, and there are inexperienced players...but inexperienced players by your definition are BAD. You assume that players who prefer to run these gimmick builds are bad players who can't run anything else. Not true, not by a long shot. Saying people are bad at the game because they can't run with an experienced team and be a seamless addition to it is just ridiculous. People are only GOOD in the eyes of other players if they know what those other players want from them and deliver it.

This argument is stupid. You want to take away the only builds that some players can run. These builds get new players involved in team play in elite areas. They don't always roll the areas. Experienced players roll the areas. Experienced players that CAN run non-gimmick builds and still roll the areas but choose not to because it's slower. Inexperienced pugs cannot match or even come close to the times that the experienced guilds have been posting. So your argument is MOOT. Your whole argument against gimmick builds is that it allows inexperienced(sorry, BAD) players to waltz through elite areas, and I've shown you insurmountable evidence to the contrary. Stop taking the diamonds in the rough with their super-fast runs and applying them to the entire GW playerbase because frankly it's idiotic.

Gimmick builds have nothing to do with PvE balance. It has to do with keeping players playing the game because without them, you'd see a mass exodus to WoW or something else.

Arkantos · Jan 05, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Yes, they're FORCED TO USE gimmick builds because otherwise they'll fail. It's not because they won't be accepted, it's because they FAIL.

You keep saying the same thing I'm saying but making it an argument for your case. There are bad players, and there are inexperienced players...but inexperienced players by your definition are BAD. You assume that players who prefer to run these gimmick builds are bad players who can't run anything else. Not true, not by a long shot. Saying people are bad at the game because they can't run with an experienced team and be a seamless addition to it is just ridiculous. People are only GOOD in the eyes of other players if they know what those other players want from them and deliver it.

This argument is stupid. You want to take away the only builds that some players can run. These builds get new players involved in team play in elite areas. They don't always roll the areas. Experienced players roll the areas. Experienced players that CAN run non-gimmick builds and still roll the areas but choose not to because it's slower. Inexperienced pugs cannot match or even come close to the times that the experienced guilds have been posting. So your argument is MOOT. Your whole argument against gimmick builds is that it allows inexperienced(sorry, BAD) players to waltz through elite areas, and I've shown you insurmountable evidence to the contrary. Stop taking the diamonds in the rough with their super-fast runs and applying them to the entire GW playerbase because frankly it's idiotic.

Gimmick builds have nothing to do with PvE balance. It has to do with keeping players playing the game because without them, you'd see a mass exodus to WoW or something else.

They'll fail because they're bad, and bad players shouldn't be doing elite areas/hard mode. That is just common sense. If something is supposed to be hard, you're supposed to be good.

No, I don't think inexperienced players are bad. Everyone who plays Guild Wars was inexperienced, but not everyone who plays Guild Wars has been bad. You're inexperienced when you first try and complete an area and fail. You're bad when you fail after multiple times, and do not try to learn from your mistakes. And no, I don't think players who use gimmick builds are bad. I do, however, think players who only use gimmick builds and fail with balanced builds are bad, though.

Yes, these gimmick builds do introduce players to elite areas. The problem is, these players are introduced to it with an overpowered gimmick. They don't truly learn anything about the area. Once introduced by gimmicks, they still don't know jack, and will still run gimmicks, and failing at balanced when they try. Players should be running balanced first, than gimmicks. At least that way they learn about the area, and (hopefully) become a more skilled player.

How do gimmick builds have nothing to do with balance? Seriously, think that one over.

Ariena Najea · Jan 05, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

After reading through most of this, I have to say most of the posters clearly have no idea what they are talking about, and are simply quoting those that do. Forget about your ego and don't post when you have nothing to positively contribute to the thread. Now if we all stop with personal attacks, most of you might come to the conclusion that opinions cannot by definition be wrong, only "facts" that most people don't realize are their own opinions. Why this intro? This is one of the best suggestion threads I've seen in a very long time, and most likely it will be closed tomorrow because of posters acting like five year olds.

The overarching problem to PvE balance is similar to that in PvP; skills that do not require significant ability to play, which have similar power to those that do require ability, are preferred due to ease of use. This thread originally focused upon [[shadow form], [[save yourselves], and [[cry of pain]. The common thread between these skills is that none of them requires anything more than competence to play effectively. As for the Arkantos' proposed changes, I approve with the exception of Cry of Pain. Requiring an interrupt is a good change, however, decreasing the damage is not the way to go. The cause for the abuse of this skill is that the damage only relies on having a Mesmer Hex (for AoE rather than single target). Changing the skill so that it only deals damage on a successful interrupt takes care of this, and as such the skill could actually benefit from an increase in damage (based upon Fast Casting as suggested). Otherwise, the other two skills are excellent as Arkantos' detailed.

Other than the squabbling, the major argument regarding skill balance in this thread is regarding heroes. Heroes, when compared to a skilled human player, will not play most builds effectively. Many players want to be able to complete difficult areas without having to PUG or be in an active guild or alliance. It is essentially impossible to balance these two, as heroes will either fail due to their poor AI and skillset, or rely upon skills which they use effectively, for which a player can far exceed. The perfect example of this is [[Warrior's Endurance]. This skill allows the normally abysmal Warrior heroes to reliably deal large packets of damage through the use of Scythes, [[Power Attack], and other 5 energy attack skills. In the hands of a skilled player, the ability to spam Power Attack on recharge while still inflicting crucial knockdowns as well as deep wound is extremely powerful, especially when combined with [[Strength of Honor] and [[Order of Pain]. The lesson learned is that nearly any effective hero build that is comparable to having a human ally, could easily be played more effectively by a skilled human player.

In contrast, compare a hero's usage of another highly effective Warrior elite, [[Primal Rage], to that of Warrior's Endurance. Odds are, the hero will die a horrible death. Sure, in the hands of an experienced player, upon taking severe damage a cancel stance such as [[Rush] would be used, but heroes don't know to use that. I have yet to create or see a hero build that uses Primal Rage for any real effect. What's important is that both Primal Rage and Warrior's Endurance can be used effectively by players, who are smarter than heroes.

There is really only one solution that will allow heroes to play on a human level without using rigged skills that shouldn't exist as they do. Improve the hero AI. Easier said than done? Unlikely to happen with only one programmer? Not worth the effort in a dying game? Maybe. Just remember, just because PvE is dying, doesn't mean it's dead.

HawkofStorms · Jan 05, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Or players

Subtle.

I never was insulting you by giving you some gameplay tips. I'm sorry if you are reading way to much into my previous post. I am not a troll in this thread, no matter how much you want me to be.

@Tenebrae, stop trolling. I especially find the irony in the "God i really hope that caps help yoo to understand my point." line.

No one in this thread is QQing. No one in this thread is "elitest." No one in this thread is "retarded." EVERYBODY in this thread is stubborn.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 05, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Not every character can use every skill. I mean, they can, but it's useless. And critical sin with triple shot... Why would you waste a sin by giving him a bow instead of a WS Scythe or DB/MS? That is, if we are still talking about effectiveness.

Because I like playing my sin with a bow and bow attack skills?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Don't think of it as making it harder, think of it as "kicking the game back into touch".

I always love the suggestion "just don't use those skills". If they're available, people will use them even if they want the game to be made harder, this is because everyone is always on a quest to find the most efficient build at killing. There is no valid reason to have to dumb down your build to bring the game down to a more enjoyable level.

Well, how about that little old thing called enjoyment? Over the years that I have played (since the final betas before Proph), I have seen many, many people here dismiss this idea of "personal choice." However, this idea is one of the integral backbones of the RPG genre - the choice of how we wish to play our characters, and the choice of how we wish to individualize those characters from the rest of the pack. This is one of the reasons why I choose to play an Assassin with a bow (and have Trip Shot on the bar), and to play a Warrior prime as an Archer BM build.

It's about how I get my enjoyment out of the playing the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

For those who say PvE skills/buffs didn't hurt the game, let me mention one area which they did hurt. Read the name of the game: GUILD Wars. Less people join guilds on the PvE side. Why join a guild, when you can run through most areas with H/H, or farm solo with SF? Guilds are mostly about PvP, now. I remember when you had a mix, with people getting together to GvG or even AB one night, then hit elite areas like Urgoz another. HM brought this back for a short while, but then Anet, with consumables, drove that away. Now, other than for RP, most guilds seem to be geared for PvP. When you kill one of the great social aspects of the game, you are killing the reason it is a MMO/CORPG, and making it more like Diablo2, or an RPG.

Honestly, if you want to do stuff on your own, go play Final Fantasy or Oblivion. Otherwise, you really don't understand the reason behind SOCIAL games.

Like I said, I remember the days when the design of the game was to have people play through the PvE content of the game, then use what they learned and unlocked to move on to PvP, which was the "elite area" of the day. PvE skills and consumables didn't hurt the game, the game has simply mutated, as games are oft to do, into something different. If anything hurt the game, the nature of how human being act towards one another, either in RL or in a game is more to blame than anything Anet developed.

{/sarcasm}And honestly, if you want balance go play *insert name of a balanced game here* instead of GW. {/endsarcasm}
Sorry, but I get so tired of hearing this statement uttered by any side. When I bought GW, I was looking for a good new RPG game that harkened back to the party-based games I grew up on that allowed me the freedom to play as I wanted. I didn't care whether it was single player or multi-player, and one of the main reasons I decided on GW was the free to play philosophy. So far, Anet has gotten closer to the mark than any game I have played in a long while, which is why I am as addicted to it now, nearly four years later, as when I first started.

In terms of balance, yes I would like to see a balanced game where solo farming builds are impossible to run - if a party size is eight, the area should require that, whether it be eight humans or one human with H/H. But since there are players out there who enjoy playing the game in that manner, then I will respectively decline to press the point. The game I most enjoy playing is the one that allows people to play the way they find the most enjoyable and to get the kind of challenge out of it they want.

If a player wants to steamroll The Deep or Urgoz because they find it fun, then the more power to them. I shall continue to exercise my freedom of choice and play in the manner in which I find the most enjoyment out of the game. That's all the balance I need.

Hanok Odbrook

Rainen_Fyre · Jan 05, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Sorry, but when I bought Guild Wars, it was nothing like this. You joined the forum in 2008, so I'm assuming you didn't play Guild Wars in 2005. We bought the game before these overpowered gimmick builds were around. We bought the right game, which got changed because the majority of players were bad at the game and QQ'd to ANet for years (sorry, looks like ANet did listen to the QQers)

You have no clue what QQing is, so stop using it. Does it look like I'm crying, or does it look like I'm giving constructive suggestions to ANet? You should see the amount of people who start whining when they begin defending the broken shit in PvE. So please, don't use words that you don't know the meaning to. And when talking about QQers, remember that people just like you whined to ANet for years.

\

I have not been in the game from 05 but have been here since Factions. Lets face it, does it really matter how fast we go through Hard Mode? HM was implemented by Anet to give us some kind of a challenge while waiting for GW2. Same thing with GWEN. It just happens that the community was able to use their heads and come up with fast and easy builds to do HM. I thought it was nice of Anet to make SF some what usable. I personally never used it except for farming greens. The health spike at the end was a waste of time to use in a party, oh and i remember that sins weren't allowed in groups until SF was made so that it could be upheld permanently. Also lets not forget that Anet was the ones who made this skill what is today. So really in essence you are QQing about how its not fair that your little tank can't compete for a group spot when a sin has perma SF. I sure as heck didn't hear you QQing for sins when they weren't let into groups cause they suck.

Arkantos · Jan 05, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainen_Fyre

\

I have not been in the game from 05 but have been here since Factions. Lets face it, does it really matter how fast we go through Hard Mode? HM was implemented by Anet to give us some kind of a challenge while waiting for GW2. Same thing with GWEN. It just happens that the community was able to use their heads and come up with fast and easy builds to do HM. I thought it was nice of Anet to make SF some what usable. I personally never used it except for farming greens. The health spike at the end was a waste of time to use in a party, oh and i remember that sins weren't allowed in groups until SF was made so that it could be upheld permanently. Also lets not forget that Anet was the ones who made this skill what is today. So really in essence you are QQing about how its not fair that your little tank can't compete for a group spot when a sin has perma SF. I sure as heck didn't hear you QQing for sins when they weren't let into groups cause they suck.

So you agree that hard mode is supposed to be a challenge, but you don't agree that these overpowered skills need to be toned down? As long as these skills are at their current state, hard mode will not be a challenge.

No, I'm not QQing that I can't get into groups as a tank. I don't run tanks, nor do I need them. And no, I didn't say anything when sins weren't welcomed in pugs. Know why? Because pugs are bad, and I had friends/a guild that let me use my sin because they weren't as simple minded as most GW players and knew they weren't bad.

HawkofStorms · Jan 05, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainen_Fyre

\

I have not been in the game from 05 but have been here since Factions. Lets face it, does it really matter how fast we go through Hard Mode? HM was implemented by Anet to give us some kind of a challenge while waiting for GW2. Same thing with GWEN. It just happens that the community was able to use their heads and come up with fast and easy builds to do HM. I thought it was nice of Anet to make SF some what usable. I personally never used it except for farming greens. The health spike at the end was a waste of time to use in a party, oh and i remember that sins weren't allowed in groups until SF was made so that it could be upheld permanently. Also lets not forget that Anet was the ones who made this skill what is today. So really in essence you are QQing about how its not fair that your little tank can't compete for a group spot when a sin has perma SF. I sure as heck didn't hear you QQing for sins when they weren't let into groups cause they suck.

Bolded relevant part. Playing a warrior as a tank invalidates arguement.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Morkai]

DoA is dead because of lack of skill. By taking away Ursan, DoA died. You see the pattern here? Or have you not been reading the past 6 pages worth of thread.

With UB everyone was doing it. Now it isn't. That means the skill level required for these gimmick skills is higher (even if only slightly).

What people say about SY! can be said about any shout or even the paragon profession.

I know I can do DoA 2 payers+6 heroes without SY!, but it will be alot harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Subtle.

I never was insulting you by giving you some gameplay tips. I'm sorry if you are reading way to much into my previous post. I am not a troll in this thread, no matter how much you want me to be.

Wasn't at you in particular. But there is a lot "If you don't think this need to be nerfed you just are a noob that needs it to do stuff".

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

So you agree that hard mode is supposed to be a challenge, but you don't agree that these overpowered skills need to be toned down? As long as these skills are at their current state, hard mode will not be a challenge.

No, I'm not QQing that I can't get into groups as a tank. I don't run tanks, nor do I need them. And no, I didn't say anything when sins weren't welcomed in pugs. Know why? Because pugs are bad, and I had friends/a guild that let me use my sin because they weren't as simple minded as most GW players and knew they weren't bad.

I bet those players u are aiming at, at most do UWSC and that's it.

A good way to increase skill player would be by giving heroes and henchman good start builds, so maybe people could copy cat them, instead of copy cat'ing healing breeze or full healing monks.

[Morkai] · Jan 05, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

With UB everyone was doing it. Now it isn't. That means the skill level required for these gimmick skills is higher (even if only slightly).

Yes. Because mashing one skill every 12 seconds means you are good at the game. Wrong.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Morkai]

Yes. Because mashing one skill every 12 seconds means you are good at the game. Wrong.

All u do in gws is mashing buttons.

I'm a defender of hybrids characters. All my teams play like that. Melee does damage. Monks heal AND protect. Mid liners have utility and so on.

I think any team using tanks are gimping themselves.

The problem in cryways aren't the sf tanks. It is CoP huge AoE.

And everyone in here can say otherwise but discord necros or SY! imbagon teams won't kill any faster.

Discord teams use hybrid heroes that are actually good at energy management, opposed to every other hero out there (bar rangers and paragons).

SY! allows for a more relaxed play, I admit. And you can be more careless, its a fact. But you are far from unbeatable.

Want to do a nerf - nerf the amount of armor. Changing SY! to warriors only, is just killing valid options.

And for god's sake, bring back watch yourself to what it was before the +armor per certain amounts of hits.

[Morkai] · Jan 05, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

All u do in gws is mashing buttons.

Resorting to technicalities to fuel arguments is a sure sign you've lost.

If you can provide a valid reason why hitting Cry of Pain every 12 seconds, takes more skill than developing a balanced team build to clear the same area, then completing said area. Then I may use my time to reply.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Morkai]

Resorting to technicalities to fuel arguments is a sure sign you've lost.

If you can provide a valid reason why hitting Cry of Pain every 12 seconds, takes more skill than developing a balanced team build to clear the same area, then completing said area. Then I may use my time to reply.

I was changing my reply. Its late here.

And once you get ur balance team build and do it once you will always do it, unless u screw some fixed aggro.